Long Hauler Covid Personal Experience

Dr. Cooper

Welcome to the latest episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness, and Performance Coaching Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Bradford Cooper of the Catalyst Coaching Institute. And today’s episode, frankly, is it’s one I wish we didn’t have to address. It’s an interview with best-selling author elite masters runner coach, and now long hauler COVID sufferer, Matt Fitzgerald. Matt was one of your favorite guests in season one as we discussed a range of topics from his outstanding lineup of best-selling books around the concept of endurance sports. Today’s topic takes us down a completely different path. The past summer calling long hauler or long haul COVID the inability for many, even those who are the healthiest among us like Matt, to shake symptoms of COVID. I’m certain you’ll find our discussion of value, both for your own insight and potentially to help those around you who may be struggling from the same. If you’ve been considering pursuing a career as a health and wellness coach, the next certification that qualifies you for the NBHWC national board exam is on tap June 5th and 6th. We just had a fantastic group join us this past weekend for the March event. And the June date is already beginning to fill up. For those of you who like to get ahead, you don’t have to wait until June. As soon as you register, you can get begin accessing the other on-demand courses that are part of that certification process. All the details at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com or we’re happy to discuss with you, just shoot us an email Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com and we’ll get a call set up. Now it’s time to be a catalyst as we listen into best-selling author and current long hauler COVID battler Matt Fitzgerald on the latest episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness, and Performance Coaching Podcast. All right, well, very special guest today. You know, Matt Fitzgerald, he was on here a couple of years ago, not a good reason to have him on today, but an important reason. And that is to talk about the long hauler COVID or long COVID a lot of different names for it. Matt, welcome to the Catalyst Health, Wellness and Performance Coaching podcast. I wish it were for a different reason.

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. But life goes on, so it’s good to be back. I’m still breathing. So might as well do fun stuff like talk to you.

Dr. Cooper

Exactly. Well, let’s give people an update on your story. They know of you. You’re a, you write a lot about endurance. One of my favorite all-time books, iron war, you’re well known for the 80 20 principle. We’ll talk about your comeback book. That, how was that for timing? Um, so we’ll talk about that towards the end, but give people the last, you know, since early October what’s been happening, what were your discoveries, kind of catch us up here.

Matt Fitzgerald

Sure. Um, so, uh, you know, I got sick back in, in March. Um, you know, I’m pretty sure it was COVID, you know, those are the days when it was very hard to get tested. Um, and even by the time I was able to get an antibody test, it was, uh, it was kinda too late. I had actually a negative antibody test, but, um, you know, it looks like a duck walks like a duck, et cetera, et cetera. It was COVID. Um, you know, I, I’m an odd case because they’re, you know, about, they’re estimating about 10% of people who get it and recover end up as so-called long haulers where you’re just kind of messed up and you stay messed up. Um, for me, I recovered was healthy for six months and not just healthy, but fit, you know, I’d lost a lot of fitness when I was sick. Um, and you know, it was funny when all, all my athlete friends are complaining about like no races to do. Like I was like, who cares? So I just had all this pent up desire to train and so had fun with it for about six months and then started to go backwards in early October. Um, you know, I have this pet theory that, that for me, it might’ve been triggered by the wildfires out here in California, that, you know, the, the air was really bad for weeks at a time, and it really affected me. And so it wasn’t long after that, that I started to develop. Um, at first I had no idea, you know, I made like a laundry list of things, everything from iron deficiency to over-training syndrome. Uh, but what was able to go through a process of elimination. And I still don’t have, um, at this point it’s undiagnosable. But, you know, I’ve networked with a lot of long haulers done my research and it’s sometimes I get goose flesh talking to other people because it’s uncanny when you’re comparing how similar our experiences are. So, um, just about four months into this new chapter of my life now, and, you know, there’s no trajectory to it at all. Like it’s constantly evolving, but you know, people keep using this word recovery. It’s like, you know, speedy recovery, how’s your recovery going? And I’m like, that’s not it that’s, I’m, I’m living with a condition. I am not recovering from an illness. Right. Uh, so yeah, that’s, that’s where I am now.

Dr. Cooper

We want to get you on as a lot of our listeners, I’m afraid, and I, I know I’ve fallen into this boat prior to hearing about your and your story and a story out of the UK, um, that we feel Bulletproof. Like, you know what, I’m healthy. I eat well, I’m pretty fast, you know, I’m fit. Did you just run what a 1:14:30 or something a year ago? I mean, you’re at the top of your game for the half marathon. Didn’t you have a pretty good outing there where you were testing your fitness?

Matt Fitzgerald

Well, you know, I, I, I contracted the virus in Atlanta where I ran the Atlanta marathon and I killed it. You know, I’ve had a really great, I was, I was fit, you know, for a 48 year old man. I was super fit. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Cooper

So I, I think our hope is that folks that maybe, are feeling a little Bulletproof, look at Matt and say, Whoa, wait, Matt’s not like a weekend warrior. Matt’s not like this guy that’s kind of casually into it. And he’s kind of doing it. He’s one of us folks. He’s one of those people that is all in he’s coaching people. He knows his stuff. He’s studying this on a regular basis. He was performing well. And here he is now. So current status, you kind of updated on us that you shared a really interesting article with me. And I wanted to tee that up. It pointed to three distinct phenomena tied to this long hauler COVID, can you set that up as a baseline for our conversation today a little bit?

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. You know, I’ve been, you know, sometimes I put myself in the shoe, like what if I hadn’t gotten COVID and, you know, would that whole Bulletproof thing, I can’t deny that I, I would probably feel a little bit bulletproof, you know, and same thing with, you know, I see all this confusion surrounding like long COVID and, and what it is. And, and for me, I’m, I’m sort of getting annoyed by it, but then I think, you know, what, like if I weren’t so personally interested in the phenomenon, I probably would not know much about it either. So I think it’s helpful to just tease apart these three distinct phenomenon. One is if you’ve got the virus, you know, so you’re, you, you’re, you’re sick from, uh, active virus in your body. Everyone knows all about that. Another is, um, you can have it, especially if you get really sick, if you’re one of these people who ends up in the hospital with it, you can have, but, but even not, you know, you can get a moderate version of the illness. You can end up with a long-term or even permanent organ damage. So it can, it can mess up your heart. Um, you know, like mild carditis, you see these, you know, these young athletes just Keeling over and dying, uh, from, from what COVID has done to their heart. Um, and so you get, you can end up with inflammation in your brain. You know, there are people, I know people who’ve had aneurysms, uh, as a result of COVID. So that that’s phenomenon, number two, like you’ve recovered from the virus, but it has, you know, damaged your body and you may or may not recover from that. And then third distinct from that is this, uh, what they’re calling post acute COVID 19 syndrome, which is that’s the long haul thing. And it’s not, it’s not the active virus. It’s not the long-term organ damage. Like, um, for me it turns out actually my heart is messed up a separate conversation. It actually has nothing to do with it COVID, it’s just one, if you get enough tests to find something, they’ll find something.

Matt Fitzgerald

So, but for me, like everything else checks out, you know, so yeah, I had lung function, tests, blood work, and all this stuff, and they’re like, you’re the healthiest person we’ve ever seen. And it’s like, I sure don’t feel like it. And so that that’s long COVID for you. And it’s, and you know, something I’ve learned is that this sort of thing is not uncommon after a viral infection. So other viruses besides COVID, you know, this is an unknown thing you can end up with what are known as dysautonomia is, which is where your autonomic nervous system has trouble just regulating, uh, functions, like, you know, blood, heart rate, breathing, even perspiration, even gut function. And then chronic fatigue syndrome often, you know, people who, uh, now that, that actually is a recognized diagnosis. So people who are diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome that is often post viral. So people get a really bad flu or like the previous SARS epidemic a decade or so back. Some of those people came out of it and were diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. So that’s the long haul thing. And there’s a debate about whether like, you know, well, welcome to your new life. Like, that’s, you’ve just got it almost like an auto-immune disease, right. Or if it is, you know, if it is something that you could potentially recover from, if it could be treatable in some way, it’s a big, question mark.

Dr. Cooper

We just don’t know yet. Yeah. Just haven’t had enough time. Let’s run through a bunch of questions. We, we have, obviously in our line of work, we’ve been interacting with folks that are battling their way through this, either the long or the shorter term, let’s talk the long COVID specifically. And I know you don’t have the the answers to all these things. So just from what you’ve read, what you found, et cetera, just give us the best insights you’ve got. Do we know at all, why some people get the long haul COVID and some don’t, is it related to, uh, I’ve heard some indication, maybe, you know, Oh, blood type is a little bit more resistant in a positive, maybe not so much, you know, run down. Are there, are there any, are there any correlations here or, or at least relatable concepts that are worth talking about?

Matt Fitzgerald

Two things I do know that the terms they’re sort of demographic clues, um, one is a, it affects a lot more women. Uh, and so I’m a bit of a unicorn in that regard. Um, uh, and so that’s one thing, uh, you know, obviously, you know, men and women are biologically different and, you know, there are lots of illnesses that affect one sex more than the other. And this just seems to be one that skews more female. Um, and interestingly, you know, I’ve also seen reporting that long haulers are, are typically people who, uh, were younger, healthier at the outset and didn’t get that sick, you know, were not hospitalized. So, um, and that sense, like, um, I fit the demographics personally. And the theory behind that is that it’s actually, um, it is very much like an auto-immune disease where, you know, the long haul has something to do with your immune system going to war with your own body. So that would sort of make sense, like if you’re younger, healthier fitter, and you’ve got this nice robust immune system, it actually becomes your own worst enemy, right. Uh, once you’ve gotten the virus. So that, that’s a possibility other than that, in terms of like, you know, there probably is a, there’s almost certainly some kind of, there are almost certainly genetic factors that would either protect you or predispose you. But though, as far as I know, not nothing is known about those.

Dr. Cooper

Interesting, interesting. Um, and we don’t know the vaccine hasn’t been out long enough to know if there’s any reduction in long haul with the use of the vaccine or elimination of, uh, we, we just, we just don’t know, is that right?

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. I’m curious about that. You know, there, there was a great piece in the New York times yesterday about, um, kind of about this stuff that there’s a new book out about sort of these, these chronic conditions like Lyme disease, which, you know, it’s a very similar experience for a lot of people. And, um, they’re, they have found like if, if you end up with chronic fatigue or something, um, uh, that’s post bacterial infection. Apparently there’s a lot of debate in medicine about this, but, you know, there’s at least a fair amount of anecdotal evidence and some scientific backing for the idea that high dose, um, antibiotic, um, a regimen like that could go on for like a year, 18 months of just smacking your body with antibiotics, that that can actually help people, um, kind of get out of the rut. Um, but, but, but that’s for bacteria for, for virus who knows, but, but sort of the functional equivalent of that would be, um, you know, like a vaccine type of treatment, like, you know, antibodies or something like that. So, um, maybe, maybe there’s something to that, you know, I’m sort of like, you know, the, the irrational hopeful part of me is hoping like, you know, when my turn comes around and I get the vaccine, well, let me back up and say, uh, another unknown is whether the long haul thing has something to do with the virus still like lurking around undetectable in the body. Or if it, if it’s just the virus did something to you and then left and sort of left its calling card, that’s unknown. If it’s the former, if it is actually the virus, uh, still, you know, working its dark magic, then, then maybe something like that could work as a therapeutic, you know, whether it’s one or two shots of a vaccine, probably not because you would probably start seeing that chatter now. Cause cause you know, enough long haulers probably have gotten the vaccine that you would hear them shouting from the mountain top. Right. I haven’t heard, I haven’t heard that yet. Right. So, so who knows? That’s one possibility.

Dr. Cooper

Interesting. Yeah. Well, hopefully we’ll know more about that just in the next few weeks as more people are getting those, I’m asking a question that you don’t know the answer to, but any, any guesses as to how long it lasts for most people and you kind of implied, we not only do we not know, but we’re kind of, this might just be the new you?

Matt Fitzgerald

Right? Yeah. It’s, you know, you know, when I first, you know, I, I told you I went through this process of elimination, you know, trying to figure out what was wrong with me. And I sort of settled in on, um, long COVID, um, uh, you know, that’s when I started reading up doing my research and I kept coming across this phrase, uh, you know, systems, symptoms persisting for months. And I got so, so fed up with that phrase cause kind of like, why are you saying that like it’s only been around for months, right. So, you know, it’s a, it’s a total hedge, like, you know, are you just avoiding saying probably permanent, you know, like, but no one would no one would back up and say, not enough time has passed. Um, and, and, and so, you know, it’s interesting because you learn a lot about yourself when you go through something like this. And for me, um, I almost immediately went into this mode and this was instinctive. It wasn’t a plan. Like I went into this mode of assuming I wasn’t going to get better. And I thought like, well, that seems really pessimistic Matt, but, but I don’t think that’s really what it was. I just, I wanted to kind of assume the worst and develop coping mechanisms around that and then be pleasantly surprised. You know, I’m still, I’m not fatalistic, I’m, I’m taking active steps to get better. Right. But, but in terms of like, you know, dealing with it now, I just, I just feel, and it’s kind of the athlete in me. I just think it’s dangerous to, to pin your happiness on factors you can’t control. Like I just instinctively, I, I don’t do that. So, you know, people, that’s another word I’m giving you a long list of words and phrases. I’ve got another one, but I really don’t like, Oh, like people keep saying, Oh, I hope this. I hope that I’m like, shut up. I am, I am not hoping I’m, I’m wanting in the absence of. I’m wanting and I’m working. But like, in terms of like, you know, I want to find a way it’s sort of, my challenge to myself is like, how happy can you be when you feel physically miserable all day, every day? Like, you know, cause if I can, if you know, if I can get to that point, I’m golden.

Dr. Cooper

The stoics would be proud, my friend, the stoics would be proud. I just read yesterday a quote, that was saying the body doesn’t ruin the mind unless the, mind, injuries or it wasn’t talking about injuries it was talking about the illness illness of the body doesn’t affect the mind, unless, unless the mind decides that it’s going to let it. And that’s exactly the approach you’re taking. So I love that. It seems from what I’ve read, heard that it’s kind of a roller coaster of good days, bad days. Is that what you’re also experiencing where you’re like, and good would be in quotes here, not compared to your, your last March you, but have you noticed that where, you know, today’s kind of a six, oh man I’m back to a two or, or are you pretty much constant? What do you, what are you seeing there?

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. Rollercoaster, it’s sort of on, on two levels. So there’s like the kind of the general and then the specific, or, you know, the overall picture and the details. Like, you know, if I had to give an overall rating one to 10 on how I feel, um, you know, from, from day to day, that will go up and down. But then, you know, just as in exercise, I listed out all of the specific symptoms I’ve experienced since the onset of this. Um, and it was 21 symptoms and some of them are like, like maybe it’s it’s, it can be hard to tell, like, pin that on COVID. Um, but, but somewhat, but there’s a constant evolution in those. So, you know, I might give, you know, today a four and tomorrow a six in terms of how I feel overall, but the actual specific symptoms underlying that the picture could change a lot. Um, I’ll give you an example, a couple of examples, very early on, uh, one of, one of the earliest symptoms was excessive thirst. Like I had this just unspeakable thirst, which is like, that’s associated with diabetes. It can be low blood pressure type two diabetes. And so those are on my list, you know? Um, but that’s gone now. I don’t, I don’t have that anymore, but, but it was clearly, I mean, it was right after the initial onset of this. So it was clearly part of the whole package. Um, another one is, uh, like numbness tingling in the extremities, like at, at times that has been severe, like I, um.

Dr. Cooper

Which can also be related to diabetes.

Matt Fitzgerald

Right? Yeah. Uh, yeah, like, uh, yeah, exactly. Neuropathy. Um, but you know, so, you know, at times I’ve had like, especially during activity, like I had my entire left leg, like right up to the buttock, go numb to the point where I actually had to look down because I wouldn’t know if my foot was on the ground otherwise, but that’s mostly gone now.

Dr. Cooper

And no history of sacred iliac issues or lumbosacral issues, or was this flaring something up that was somewhat there before? Or you’re like, dude, I, I haven’t had leg pain from, you know, low back issues ever.

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. Completely novel symptom. Yeah. They looked at, you know, cause they’ve done everything like, uh, uh, they, they, you know, my doctor thought, well, maybe you’ve got a bulging disc. I’m like, well, don’t explain one out of 21 symptoms as part of what makes me pull my hair out, the reductionism you seen in medicine. But so they’ve looked for that sort of thing and you know, nothing.

Dr. Cooper

And as far as follow-up testing blood work, you said there’s really, at this point, there’s nothing like, there’s nothing that people listening to this who are wondering, well, maybe that’s kind of me. Maybe I’m not struggling as much as Matt is, but I’m just not myself. There’s at this point, there’s really nothing. They can go in and have a blood test done or, or check their mineral levels or anything like that. It’s just kind of a waiting game. Is that accurate or is there something there that we haven’t talked about?

Matt Fitzgerald

Well, you know, in terms of like diagnosis, I mean, if you, if, you know, for sure you had, COVID, that’s helpful, you know, I, I’m not even there, like, there’s this new two new term coined by, uh, uh, just another writer, um, undocumented, long haulers. So I’m part of that category. Um, especially those of us who got sick, you know, very early on, you know, a lot of us, we just weren’t able to get tested. And even by the time we were able to get an antibody test, it was useless, like just total anyway. Um, so there’s that, I mean, you know, so that can help in terms of like, you know, knowing, but, but even something like let’s say that, you know, you, you had COVID, you know, it, uh, you, you’ve got, you know, some classic long haul symptoms now and you still want some sort of closure or answer. Uh, it’s not like, you know, it could be chronic fatigue syndrome. There’s no tests to diagnose that. I I’ve heard about something brand new. It’s kind of in a research phase out of Canada, um, kind of a two-part test, um, that they think could actually be the first definitive test for chronic fatigue syndrome. But that’s a maybe and it’s brand new it’s, you know, it’s, they’re not, it’s totally, it’s in the research phase. It’s not in the clinical phase now, so yeah, it’s kinda tough. Um, if it’s something more like a dysautonomia, like, uh, PLTs, postural, orthostatic, orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, there’s a, there’s a test for that. So you can get sort of certain diagnoses out of this, but mostly it’s just, you know, kind of simple symptom management.

Dr. Cooper

Speaking of management, I want to talk about the mental side, the mindset side, uh, that you’ve talked about in your book here in a minute, but any anything that folks can do that you’ve discovered either personally or in what you’ve read, that they can self-treat to help with the fatigue, the brain fog, the maybe breathing difficulties, the night sweats. Is there anything that you’ve noticed has brought it from here to not here, but maybe here?

Matt Fitzgerald

Uh, I guess, you know, one thing I’ve been focused on is the, the exercise piece, you know, because obviously I’m an addict, right, right. You know, and also, you know, exercise is, is good as prevention and treatment for almost any health condition you can name. Uh, but the sad irony here is that there are exceptions and, and chronic fatigue syndrome is one. Um, and so my instinct was, you know, when I first started, I mean, the first thing that was affected was my running, you know, so, you know, I’m not an idiot, you know, you know, while I was still feeling like, like something’s wrong, but I felt basically healthy still. I immediately eliminated like all that high intensity training, all like anything that would be super stressful. Um, I eliminated that, but I continued to unravel. So I kept like, you know, retreating in minimal increments from, from what I wanted to be doing. Um, and then I started, uh, I started, uh, what I wanted to do was like, do as much as was helpful and not so much that I would be harming my cause I knew I could easily do too much and I didn’t want to do that, but I also didn’t want to give up any more than necessary. Right. So it was a matter of like a balancing act. And I kind of enjoyed the challenge. It’s sort of like, you know, you’re training for a marathon and you develop an injury six weeks out. I actually, you don’t want that to happen, but you can enjoy the challenge. It’s sort of like hitting a bad tee shot in golf. And like, some people are good at scrambling. It’s like, can’t practice for this, but I’m enjoying the challenge of trying to get up and down. Uh, so it was a bit like that I was trying to gain it. Um, it was just a way of staying positive about a bad situation, but then I started, um, I started to wonder like, you know, am I fooling myself? You know, am I actually doing more harm than good with exercise? And, and so anyway, with, with, uh, chronic fatigue syndrome, there’s this phenomenon called post exertional malaise. And what it is is like, if you’re, and they really mean exertion, not exercise, it can be like any sort of like activity that imposes any kind of physical stress, 18 to 72 hours later, you can get like your symptoms are exacerbated. And I was still running enough, like frequently enough that there was no way for me to tell. All I knew was that my, my, that particular symptom, the like the exhaustion was getting worse, like it was becoming pretty debilitating. Um, and so I thought, you know what? I should just pull the plug on running to see, you know, give it, you know, for more than 72 hours anyway, to see if I get some kind of, I mean, that would be a pirate victory, right? Like, it’s like, Oh, I feel better now. And now I can never run again.

Dr. Cooper

Right, right, right. Thanks. Thanks very much. Yeah, exactly

Matt Fitzgerald

Like if you’re an athlete, so that’s, that’s one big piece you try and like, find that balance. It’s like, you want to do some, but you really have to be careful not to do too much.

Dr. Cooper

You mentioned earlier about the discouragement with people saying, are you recovering? How’s your recovery? Are you, you know, are you making a recovery? What recommendations would you give to the person who is married to somebody with long COVID or close friend or a coaching client, a coworker, what is the best way to approach that? Because it’s hard to find the words, what, as someone who’s hearing that and inside, you’re like, ah, what, what, what can we say, what can we do in that case? That would be helpful in some way?

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. Great, great question. Um, I guess, you know, I would tell everyone to do what my wife is doing. You know, I, I feel very lucky in that regard because, um, you know, there there’s, this there’s this moment when, when I was sick back in March, that I, I reflect on a lot. That was just to me is symbolic. Um, so for me, the worst symptom when I had the virus was this, this dry cough. And like, for me, it was, it was incredibly violent, uh, coughing and, uh, you know, I would cough up blood. I would cough up my breakfast. Um, and I cough, I cough so hard. I injured several ribs. And then every time I coughed after that, and I would have like, full-on like half hour coughing fits right after I woke up. And then right before I went to bed every day, and those were just indescribably excruciating experiences, like, like literally like being stabbed in the lung with a letter opener, 600 times, you know, 20 coughs, a minute, times, 30 minutes with, I don’t know, I couldn’t get to a hospital cause they wouldn’t let me in, but I don’t know what I did to my ribs, but it was just, it was unimaginably painful. And when I was going through those fits, you know, my wife is in the house, you know, she’s, she sees that happening. She didn’t say a word. She just went on with her business because she knows me. Like, honestly, like she acted like it wasn’t even happening. She wouldn’t rub my back. And she, she wouldn’t say, Oh, I’m so sorry. She just let it happen. Like, you know, every marriage is different, but she knew, you know, it’s not that she didn’t care. She it had to be torture for her to see me going through that. But she just, she gave me, you know, she knows me so well. She gave me space where I needed it. And then she was there for me, uh, you know, in ways that, you know, she knew would actually, you know, the help I actually needed from her, she was there to provide. And, and that’s, you know, so you sort of every couple or every, you know, even if it’s like all my brothers too, they’re like, they’re, they’re, they’re involved. And they know me very well. And they, they played their role right. Based on who I am as a person, you know, I, I am, I do keep my own counsel. I like to sort of figure things out for myself, but, you know, they’ll do things like, you know, they’ll read an article that they think might be helpful and share with me. Um,

Dr. Cooper

And that’s not irritating. I, you’re not sick of people sending you stuff. You’re just like, you know what they’re trying.

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. I mean, there, there are plenty of quacks out there. And that’s why, you know, I, when I, when I sort of went public with what I was going through, I knew that I was going to hear from the quacks, you know, what’s really going on with you is like demon possession, you need an exorcism. Right. Right. So, so there’s that. But, um, so yeah, I would just think like, don’t automatically do what you feel like doing, you know, to, to help a person who is going through this, think about who they are and what will actually be, be helpful for them. Cause it’s, you know, each of us is an individual human being who we want, we want help in different forums support in different forums. Yeah.

Dr. Cooper

That is tremendous advice. Not just for this, that’s that’s life stuff. That’s awesome. I want to circle back to something you said about filtering out the quacks. It let’s take this, you can use COVID as the example, but let’s make this more broad for folks that are listening. There’s just so much bologna out. I mean, that’s what we try to do here on the podcast is have established researchers and authors we trust and athletes that we know have been through the ringer and come out the other side. But what would be some of your recommendations or what are some of the strategies you’ve taken both with this, but also with general life and the research you’ve done for all your books to filter that out, because it’s ridiculous. And some of them come across very charismatically, but they just don’t have the credentials behind what they’re doing.

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. Then, you know, that’s a great question. And, you know, I, I would ask myself for, you know, contemplating version of it before all of this, just in terms of, you know, I’m in a role where I’m, I’m trying to give athletes sound advice, training, nutrition, psychology, and I’m in competition with, you know, experts and pseudo experts, different viewpoints. And sometimes I’m like, why are you listening to that guy?

Dr. Cooper

Right.

Matt Fitzgerald

And so, I mean, you can’t be an expert on everything, but what you do have to be an expert on, if you want to succeed as an athlete or stay healthy is an expert on choosing experts, filtering the filtering process. You need to know whom to trust. And some people, they just don’t have it in them. Like, they’re just there. I mean, it’s true. Like, I mean, they’re, they’re like take like conspiracy theories. There’s a psychological type that is predisposed to go down that road. I don’t know what you can do. Cause you know, like I don’t know what you do for those folks, but for those who, you know, um, you know, cause again, you’re, you’re not an expert on everything. Uh, so, um, what I recommend, I guess I’ll, I’ll put it this way. My approach has been, be open, but skeptical and you know, and so I don’t want to be one of those ultra skeptics who is like, Oh, I’ve got it all figured out. Or like, you know, only something that has had 20 studies done on it, you know, am I going to try because that, I think that’s too limiting. Um, you know, like I I’ve, you know, one of my long hauler friends that I’ve made in this process just recently, she, you know, she told me, Hey, I started taking these herbs. And um, she got sick around the same time I did, has really been going through it. And she said, and she’s a runner too. And you know, she said, I started taking these herbs, um, and I was able to run for the first time in months. And, and she said, you know, you might want to try it, no reason not, not to try it, um, right. And, and, and, and let’s think about like, even if getting back to sports, like a lot of like, you know, the practices that are like, you know, empirically proven to work were first, first, just like, you know, some whack jobs, random idea that he tried, you know, it’s like the coaches are often way ahead of the science. Right. You know, so don’t, don’t forget that, you know, just like, if it, if it can’t hurt and there’s like, you know, I mean, you can’t try everything and nor should you, but if something like seems worth a try, even if it’s only based on anecdote, you know, you know, you know, don’t filter out too much, but, but also, I mean, yeah.

Dr. Cooper

Well and think about what the person has in it too. Are they selling the herb or this friend of yours who, Hey, I’ve tried this, it helped me, it might be worth a try. And then number of variables too, I know you’re good about this. You don’t want to change six variables at once. If you’re trying the herbs, try the herbs, but don’t try it with seven other things, because then you have no idea what helped you.

Matt Fitzgerald

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Same, same thing I did with the, you know, the, the exercise, like trying, trying, not running for, like, I couldn’t do that and three other things at the same time, because, you know, I would have no idea.

Dr. Cooper

You have no idea what’s going on. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I’m hearing my professor’s voice in my head. Brad, you can’t check that many variables on your study, but Mark and Martin come on. This would be so cool. Yes, Brad. It would be cool, but it’s not possible. Um, all right. Let’s talk about your book. The comeback quotient just released, came out in December, right? Talk about timing. Are there strategies from that book that have been helpful to you as you worked your way through this journey? And I don’t want to keep this only, I want you to talk about for COVID, but then let’s extrapolate to other stuff folks are going through because we’re all, we’re always in the midst of our own comeback in some way, whether it’s an injury or a career or relationship or whatever. So, uh, let’s start with COVID and then let’s, let’s broaden this thing out a little bit and some of the strategy that you provide.

Matt Fitzgerald

Sure. Um, yeah, so, you know, a big part of coaching is, I mean, you’re really sort of like an uncredentialed psychologist, on a lot of levels. And, and I just have a huge interest in it, even as an athlete myself, like part of, you know, I started running when I was 11, was still getting it at 48 and you know, my body wasn’t getting stronger, but my mind was, you know, and I love that, like, that, that journey could continue as long as you chose to pursue it. And, and as a coach and, you know, I’ve, I’ve been at it long enough and I’ve had, you know, such an abiding interest in the mental side of the sport that I’ve developed my own approach and my own sense of like what mental fitness is and how to cultivate it. And for me, you know, getting back to the Stoics and the Buddhists and the transcendentalists and, uh, the humanist psychologist, is it, for me, it’s all about the ability and willingness to fully face reality. Like, that’s it, that is, that is mental fitness to me, the ability to, you know, when, when the shit hits the fan to be able to first accept then embrace and then address reality, just that just as it is not wishing it were otherwise just, just saying, okay, you know, this isn’t what I wanted, but I’m not quitting. So let’s identify the problem and, and start solving it. Um, and you know, that’s what I try to do in my own life and my own athletics. That’s what I, that’s the place I tried to get. I called it, the folks who are the Jedi masters of this ultra realists. Um, and so that’s, you know, that’s what I want everyone to become, or, you know, work toward becoming, and, and yeah, I mean, you know, you know, sport is just a microcosm of life. So, um, when, you know, when I got first got sick and then, you know, became a long hauler, you know, I believe in this stuff. And, and within the book, I wanted to show people that I practice what I preach. So there are like these interstitial mini chapters in there where I make my own comeback as, as an iron man triathlete. So I had done one iron man back in 2002 when I was 31. And hadn’t done one since largely because of injuries and such, and a focus on running, but so I decided to do another one at 47, couple years ago. And, um, and, and so, uh, you know, and it was a high wire act because as I’m writing the book, I haven’t run the race yet. I could have drowned in the lake, not made it to the start line, but I wanted to show people, like, I believe in this stuff so much that, like, you know, I’m deeply invested in my own success as an athlete. I’m not going to do something unless I think it works. And so I wanted to show people like, you know, I practice this stuff and so same deal when, you know, something went wrong with my health. Um, I actually believe in this stuff. So even if I never wrote another word for public consumption for the rest of my life, and it wasn’t about putting on a show, this is how I would be coping. Like that is my toolkit, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Cooper

Well, and I like how you went to the, the broad wisdom, you know, you mentioned the Stoics, the Buddhist, uh, you even, the Bible talks about give thanks in all things, not give, thanks in the things that you like. So, I mean, that is a theme that goes across all forms of wisdom that we’ve seen through the ages. And it’s kind of cool to see you pull that out. Any other strategies from that, that wow. You, you just feel like now you’re, you’re, depending on that, more than any, I think your first one of this is reality. I’m not changing reality. I’m going to continue to work. I’m going to continue to explore, talk to folks, but, but this is my reality. And what am I going to do with this? Any others that would, would piggyback on that?

Matt Fitzgerald

Yeah. You know, uh, a big piece of it is what psychologist called metacognition, which is, you know, observing your own thoughts and emotions, like in terms of like core skills that are required to become an ultra realist. Um, you know, that’s, that’s a number one. So you need, you know, when you’re, when you’re just stuck inside, you’re suffering, or just like, you know, pick your negative emotion. Like when you’re, when you’re, when you’re stuck inside it, that emotion determines how you act, you know, because like you feel it and then you react to it. Yeah. So the only possibility to actually make choices about what you do is to, you know, achieve that sort of metacognitive stance, where you step back from what you’re feeling, observe it. And it doesn’t mean you’re not feeling it. You can’t just say, well, I’m not angry anymore. You’re like, where did this anger come from? You know, what does it mean? What can I do about it? You know, do you know, is there something I can, I mean, step number one, like if you can change your reality, do it, you can’t always, right. So that’s like, what can I do to change the interior, to, you know, feel, to be less bothered by the anger or to get over it eventually? Or what have you. So, um, that doesn’t happen overnight. Like, you know, I’m not a meditator myself, but mindfulness, meditation has great training in metacognition. So the idea is just like, when you experience a, a negative emotion, um, as quickly as you’re capable of it, um, realize that you’re having the negative emotion and then step back and analyze it. You know, at times it’s like, you know what, like, I’m just super depressed, but even there, like, you know, you know, maybe just that just like accepting that you’re depressed can make it that much better. You know, if it can get 1% better for now take it.

Dr. Cooper

Yeah. I was reading William, William Irvin, I think one of the stoic books on the five-second rule, you know, he’s talking about the food, you know, if you drop a piece of food, we kind of have this joke that if it’s less than five seconds, you’re good to go. And he uses that for his stoic tests. So you realize that I’m sad, I’m depressed, I’m bummed, I’m upset, whatever you have five seconds to catch it and go, but, and then what’s next. So, yeah, that’s good. That’s good. How can folks find your book? What’s, uh, what’s the best way to follow you? What do you suggest there? And then I want to loop back to any kind of final words of wisdom here, but what’s the best way to keep track of you?

Matt Fitzgerald

My personal website is MattFitzgerald.org. I’m on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. And then, uh, for the athletes out there, uh, my business website is 8020Endurance.com.

Dr. Cooper

Perfect. All right. So kind of wrap up anything that I haven’t teed up with the right question, kind of lasting words of wisdom for folks that are, ah, they’re going through this and, and they’re just looking for information or insights or encouragement. What can you leave us with?

Matt Fitzgerald

Well, you did a good job with your questions. Um, I don’t know. I’m just, I’m, I’m glad that folks like you are providing, uh, this type of forum. Um, you know, we’re in a very isolated time, you know, or a lot of us are just, you know, lonely and disconnected and, and, you know, I’m glad that, that people like you are, are doing what they can. And for introverts like me, there can be an inertia you need to like take an active step, um, you know, to, um, to create and sustain community. Um, so I’m sort of giving advice to myself.

Dr. Cooper

That’s what we all do. It’s not research it’s me search, right?

Matt Fitzgerald

Yes. So, you know, like, you know, no, maybe you can’t go to a family barbecue this Saturday, but it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Like, you know, do try to stay engaged, uh, with other people. Um, and you know, whether it’s by listening to podcasts or, um, you know, starting a book club or what have you, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s way better than nothing.

Dr. Cooper

Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Love it, Matt. Really appreciate it. Thank you for jumping on and, and short notice sharing your insights and we’ll definitely stay in touch. Keep us updated on everything that you’re discovering and finding. That’d be great.

Matt Fitzgerald

Appreciate it, Brad.

Dr. Cooper

Tough stuff. Thanks again to Matt Fitzgerald for his willingness to share his story and what we’re learning about this development. Thanks to you for tuning into the number one podcast for health and wellness coaching. Next week is one of our hidden gem episodes. As always, I’m not going to give it away, but if you’ve been looking for practical ways to leave negative habits in the rear view mirror and pick up positive habits in their place, this is one you will not want to miss. As always feel free to reach out to us with any questions about your current or future coaching career pursuits Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com, or you can tap into additional health, wellness, and performance resources at CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. Now it’s our chance to go be a catalyst, making a positive impact on the lives of clients, our community, and ourselves without burning out in the process. This is Dr. Bradford Cooper, of the Catalyst Coaching Institute. I’ll speak with you soon on another episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness, and Performance Coaching Podcast, or maybe over on the YouTube coaching channel.