How Age Can (but doesn’t have to) Affect Our Muscles

Dr. Cooper

Welcome to the latest episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness and Performance podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Bradford Cooper, and one of the goals of this podcast is to bring the evidence to the forefront. There are so many brilliant researchers out there with so many intriguing findings and yet we miss out on most of them because they aren’t the dramatic headlines that provide clickbait or sell magazines. So we want to try to help bridge the gap between the research and you in a practical way. You’re the individual who’s looking to try to improve your own health, wellness, your performance, or maybe that of your client. And we want to help do that. Today’s guest is Dr Vita Sonjak, a researcher from Montreal, Canada, and she has done some fascinating research on aging muscle and the difference between typical aging adults and masters athletes of the same age. It is such interesting research that helps drive home the point that you already understand movement matters, but sometimes it’s nice to pull back the curtain on what’s really happening beneath the surface and how does that apply to us in our daily lives. And we’ll do that in this episode. For those of you considering pursuing your wellness coach certification now is the time now is literally the time, the requirements, and thus the cost of doing that, pursuing your national board certification both increase significantly this fall. Our at home fast track for June is likely full at the time you’re listening to this, but we do have one more chance in July that will give you the opportunity to meet the requirements for the NBHWC before the change. You can check out all the details or pull up our new ebook that provides all the steps, just walks you right through what is involved in that national certification at catalystcoachinginstitute.com or as always, email us anytime Results@CatalystCoachingInstitute.com. We’ll set up some time and talk it through whenever you’d like. Now let’s join the discussion with dr Vita Sonjak on the latest episode of the Catalyst Health, Wellness and Performance podcast.

Dr. Cooper

Good morning, dr Sonjak. Glad to have you join us today.

Dr. Sonjak

Well, good morning Brad. Uh, thanks for having me.

Dr. Cooper

Well, this is gonna be fun. Your research looked at the difference between female inactive and octogenarian masters athletes. Talk us through, how’d you get here? What’d you end up looking at and what were some of the findings that that came about as a result?

Dr. Sonjak

Yeah, so when we looked at this very old population, so here I talk more about um, people that are 75 years of age or older. And at this age, right there is a high diversity between these individuals. So some individuals, um, have a greater deterioration of their muscle and are at a greater risk of falls and mobility impairment. There are others that are more resistant and they maintain higher function in advanced age. So for example, if we picture it like a group, a group of young soccer player, just to describe this variability between individuals. So this group of soccer players that are young, right? They are really similar in their functional capacity. They, they are, they have similar speed. They lift similar weight. But then if we follow this group throughout age, this small difference, for example, one is faster, 10 seconds than the other becomes like way bigger. So the physiological changes, the difference become more apparent, more in in advanced age.

Dr. Cooper

So, so it’s almost like the divergence of the curves. You, you start at the same point and then one is, is you know, 1-2% difference per year and over time the difference between the two is just massive.

Dr. Sonjak

Exactly. Even though they start yes, at the same for example, um, activity level. So without age, everything changes.

Dr. Cooper

Wow. Wow. And so then, Oh, I’m sorry, keep going, keep going.

Dr. Sonjak

Yeah. So yeah, with advanced age, then muscle undergoes structural changes and each month, so the muscle is composed of muscle fibers and with age the number of these fibers decreases as well as their size. So they shrink, which we also call atrophy. And when we look at the muscle in old age, there is also a high variability in, in this fiber. So we have three small fibers. We have very big hypertrophic fibers and fibers of different shapes and we don’t see that in younger people. And then one of the factors actually that contributes to these changes and then also consequently can affect muscle strength and physical performance is the, is the loss of motor neurons. So motor neurons are the neurons that are connected with the muscle and lead to it’s contraction

Dr. Cooper

And is that just a, is that a choice, a lifestyle thing? Is it just inevitable? I mean, obviously part of it is inevitable. You’re not going to be as fast at a hundred years old as you are at 30, no matter what you do. But it, did your findings lead us down any paths of this is part of the contributing factors?

Dr. Sonjak

I would say that, um, also from my other studies, um, it, the muscle just undergoes these. Um, so the muscle undergoes these innervation reinnervation process throughout adult life. And what does that mean is that when we age, our muscle loses the connection with this neuron. But then it’s again reconnected. And this happens throughout life and in very old age. This capacity for reconnecting of the neuron to the muscle is somehow impaired. So the muscle fiber just, it’s there without telling it anything to contract and it slowly shrinks in size. Yeah. So this innervation, reinnervation happens throughout life. We can’t really prevent it.

Dr. Cooper

And that’s where you looked at the masters athlete. So you’re looking at 80 year old sprinters and and other distances and you’re saying, wait a minute, these people are such outliers. What’s different? Am I getting that right?

Dr. Sonjak

That’s correct. So I wanted to actually with my study to address the presence and the degree of this innervation reinnervation. So the connection between muscle and nerves in this low sedentary, I mean low functioning, sedentary elderly individuals and then see what is like contrast my findings with the high functioning masters athletes that exercise throughout their lives. So is there any difference in, in like fiber size or this reinnervation capacity just to see what enables them to function so well?

Dr. Cooper

Right. My parents are 80 for example, they’re relatively active. What can people be doing who are listening now at 40 50 60 to set up their eighties or, or what can people in their eighties be doing different to set up their nineties or their function throughout their eighties in any, did any tidbits come out of your research that guides us down that path?

Dr. Sonjak

Yeah. So my research didn’t look, so with my study, I didn’t look the specifically into that. I mean it’s really hard to to to say it because there’s a lot that we don’t know in this area. Yeah. But what we do in a way no, is that, with exercise, so the number of these motor units right in the muscle that composed like the motor neuron and all the muscle that motor nerve innervates, the number of these motor units decreases with age. And it doesn’t matter how active you are. What matters is the capacity of reinnervation. So the reconnecting of the myofibers and what we see with masters athletes is that they still have muscle atrophy. So myofiber atrophy, they still have presence of deinnervation, but they have a greater capacity to reinnervate, those deinnervated fibers and prevent atrophy. So the shrinkage in their size. So exercise, I think it helps to, to keep this capacity for reinnervation, but we can not outrun the reduction in the number of the motor units.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. So it’s almost like we have a volume and an intensity. If we put it in different phraseology, the volume meaning the total number that’s that’s going down almost no matter what. Everybody has some genetic differences, but your number of them that will decrease. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing out there, but your intensity in a workout setting or the power that those pack, the ones that are left can stay at maybe not quite the same level. But that’s where these masters athletes are excelling is they’re keeping that, that power in spite of the decreasing number. Am I catching that right?

Dr. Sonjak

Yes, exactly. They are way, and that’s also why they have retained their muscle mass. But we also need to understand here with masters athletes, right? They are exceptional like individuals, but they still, they cannot outrun aging, right? So they still show reduction in muscle mass strength and physical performance, but at the lower rate than um, like non master athlete individuals.

Dr. Cooper

Right. And and significantly lower rate. When you’re comparing these people that you studied to the typical population, it’s, it’s not a 5% difference. It’s not a 20%. It’s a, it’s a massive difference, wouldn’t you say?

Dr. Sonjak

Yes, they are. They, they, they, it’s amazing. Looking at the data, what we actually see because again, they have atrophy. They have all the signs of, of aging, but they retain their physical performance. So they are really exceptional. Yeah.

Dr. Cooper

Yeah. One of our most popular podcasts is Joe Friel who wrote the book fast after 50 and he’s, I think he’s in his late seventies now, mid to late seventies. And, and people just love that one. Cause it’s, it’s the things that you’re talking about and how do we, how do we limit that? How do we minimize that? So, uh, it’s, it’s awesome to have you on here kind of giving us a peek behind what’s, what’s actually happening behind the, the, the other side. What, what surprised you about what you found in your data? What, when you were you going through and you went, well, huh? I didn’t expect to see that.

Dr. Sonjak

Uh, yeah. So yeah, that’s actually what we just talked about. So I was really surprised at the rate of myofiber atrophy. And even the presence of inneration in master athletes. So we see atrophy at the myocellular level, but at the whole muscle level, they retain mass, right? They have significantly higher lean mass compared to the sedentary, uh, controls. And even as young sedentary individuals and they have way better physical performance. So from this, we actually, um, like suggest that they retain, um, better number of those myofibers so there is still atrophy, but the number of fibers does not reduce, um, to the same degree as with the sedentary, um, individuals.

Dr. Cooper

Oh, okay. So taking back what I said earlier when I was kind of summarizing, so they actually did keep some of their numbers total numbers up a little bit. They’re still seeing a decrease over time, but, but their numbers were higher in addition to their mass being more?

Dr. Sonjak

Um, myofibers yes. So with each, right, you have, you have, you can lose myofibers and the myofiber, like they, they, they complete the atrophy and die. And then you have other myofibers that that undergo again, atrophy. So they are smaller. So you have two components, you have myofiber atrophy and you have myofiber loss. So you know, the number of myofibers in the aging muscle is reduced. Um, and masters athletes, it appears that they retain, I mean they retained better the number of myofibers than the sedentary.

Dr. Cooper

And did you get into what they were doing? Were there any qualitative pieces of this study looking at what is their daily routine? How long have they been lifting weights or doing interval training or any of those components? Or do you have some hypotheses around those from, from some of your expanded meta analysis, that kind of thing?

Dr. Sonjak

Um, so I um, I didn’t look specifically into it but um, the group, so I only had around seven female masters athletes and there was almost half, half, half endurance and half sprinters in that group. And um, most of them, they started exercising in their younger age. But there, I remember there was one that’s started at the age of 50. Right. So that again tells us is it’s really like when is the right time to exercise, to start exercising, to have then positive effects in advanced age. And um, and then again, other studies also show that even individuals that are 85 years of age and above, they still their muscles responded to this exercise. So to mechanical loading, they still increase in muscle strength like compared for, um, and then, and this training enables them to improve their physical function, which I think is the most important thing in advanced age. Um, so a lot of changes might be actually due to lifestyle that are negative, right, with aging.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. So everybody listening out there, you heard what she said, it doesn’t matter what your current age is. Now today’s the time folks. Let’s get going with this. All right. So your study was specifically about octogenarians. If you were to hypothesize about the differences that are present between highly active and inactive individuals in middle age, you know, forties, fifties, sixties, what would you expect to see?

Dr. Sonjak

So yeah, it’s really hard to comment on that, right? Because we don’t know that much yet. And we also don’t know if the improved reinnervation is related to genetic environment or like behavioral influences or a combination of these factors. But again, you don’t need to be a masters athletes, athlete to have like, um, benefits regarding exercise. Even like, um, recreational, um, studies show that even the recruiting recreational individuals have better this reinnervation capacity. But now again, completely hypothetical. Um, perhaps yeah, exercise in the middle age would enable better reinnervation capacity in the muscle. So, um, regular exercise does not preserve motor unit number as we said before, but may facilitate to successful reinnervation and starting for example, in their middle age may better prime that individual, um, for these changes that are more apparent in advanced age. So, you know, you would enter into old age, like more ready.

Dr. Cooper

Yeah, a little ahead of the game. Okay, good. All right, so you’ve done a good job of starting to pull us into the practical side because that with, with this whole catalyst podcast, that’s what we love here. What practical elements would you draw from the results in terms of what it means for the average listener with our lives, our activity levels, et cetera. At any age.

Dr. Sonjak

Yeah. Just like starting to move to exercise. And again, it’s like we don’t know how much exercise we need and for how long we need to exercise. But any kinds of movement, it’s better than nothing, right? So we are all different, right? And we, we can start at different, um, states of exercising. So some individuals that just start even just standing from a chair or going for a walk is for someone exercise. But of course you need to build upon that. And I also saw for example, in, uh, in my young sedentary individuals that surprised me too is that their muscle under undergone like this, um, fiber type remodeling, which is again a sign of this like innervation reinnervation, which is similar to the old sedentary individuals. So they had similar fiber, um, um, remodeling. And this also suggests that muscle disuse in a younger age may, um, lead to, um, that so that these individuals are sedentary, may be more predisposed to mobility impairment in advanced age. But then again, the muscle at the younger age is more, it’s way more responsive to exercise. So it’s never too late just to start like being active.

Dr. Cooper

Hmm. Good, good. We hear that all the time, but now we get the science behind it. So, other things you’re working on next, current studies that you’re involved with, things that you’re putting proposals in for. Where, where are you wanting to take this? What are we going to hear from you in two, three, five, seven years in terms of are you staying on this topic? Are you looking into some of those details and what people can be doing to pop that up a little bit?

Dr. Sonjak

Um, yeah, so, um, I’m still working on some of my data for my PhD. So what I’m looking in right now is to, uh, how resistance training in these sedentary elderly women, um, affect actually their muscle as well as this innervation reinnovation process. And, um, what I found was that the, that the muscle that muscle fibers, they do, um, increase in size. So we see that resistance training has a positive effect. And this elderly, they also improved their physical performance, um, like the overall lean mass. And they also would lose some of their fat mass. But then at the my cellular level, if you look more into this reinnervation capacity at the moment, I didn’t see any significant changes, I did see an increase in decisive fibers that belong to different, that belong to a group. So a group is again, a sign of reinnervation process, but I didn’t see an increased number of fibers within that group with exercise.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. So were these 80 year olds again, is it still in the 80, 90 age groups?

Dr. Sonjak

Yes, it was.

Dr. Cooper

It was interesting. Yeah. So these were people that were previously limited activity levels and you start them on a resistance training program and even in 80 year olds you’re seeing improvements, not the numbers, but in terms of mass and function, which is frankly the one that they really care about. It is, is that correct?

Dr. Sonjak

That’s correct. Exactly right. Yeah. And, and like maybe like even 12 weeks of resistant training, um, maybe that was not enough for that old muscle. Um, perhaps if we would have a longer intervention, maybe we would see also like in the reinnervation, uh, and um, really, you know, bigger effects. Um, because right, the muscle of very old individual is also, it has anabolic like resistance to exercise meaning that they need, uh, more of an exercise stimuli to get benefits compared to the young.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. So let’s run down that path cause that’s an interesting idea. And again, I understand you may not have done specific research on this and if you want to throw some disclaimers in there about, we haven’t said this exactly, but I’d just like to get your thoughts on it, kind of where you think it might be going or where things you’d like to look into. So you have this 80 year old moderate to limited activity levels and you start them, tell us first about what is this resistance training and they’re obviously not doing dead lifts and tire pushes. What types of things did you have them doing or what were they involved with over that 12 weeks?

Dr. Sonjak

Okay. So I was, I was not like really personally involved in the training because that was, um, that’s, it is a huge project. So another colleague of mine, um, she was mainly into this exercise and nutritional intervention. But uh, from when we talk, so from what I know, they were training upper and lower body and they use mostly, uh, stationary equipment, you know, when you sit and

Dr. Cooper

kind of pull with the arms. Exactly. Almost, a seated bike with some arm movement type things.

Dr. Sonjak

Yeah. And even like, um, squats on the machine. Um, so they were like various um, um, these trends exercises and then they improved. I mean if they were able at the defined weight, I think it was like 60 or 80% of one repetition maximum. And once they were able to do the right 12 times, so, um, the repetition exactly in really good form, they increased the load.

Dr. Cooper

Okay. So I like hearing this because we’re not just talking about, cause a lot of times folks at work with older individuals are when they get started late they’re like, well you know I should get on the exercise bike and actually ride for 20 minutes and then I’ll be done. And you’re saying in this study they were sitting there and they were doing the squat machine. They were completely safe, very protected setting, but they are doing the squat machine. They were doing the working the large muscle mass areas. Is that, is that correct?

Dr. Sonjak

That’s correct. Yeah. Yeah. But again, right with very older people they’re also afraid of falling and injuring. Right. So you need to assess it. What is their initial fitness level? Is it like safe to actually go directly to the machines? Should you first improve their balance and stability and make all the joints stronger and perhaps after that you, you know, you, you just build on that. Right. And these older they actually enjoy doing the exercises.

Dr. Cooper

Love that. All right. Let’s talk about just two questions left. Let’s talk briefly about the masters athletes. What, as you were working with these masters athletes, I just want to get your opinion on this one. What makes them different? Because they’re so different physiologically based on the choices and the decisions and the lifestyle. But did you, did you get anything out of their heads and why were they doing this and what drove on a daily basis? It’s just kind of intriguing stuff. And since you interacted with the seven people for this, I’m just curious what you picked up that was encouraging to you.

Dr. Sonjak

Uh, yeah, so unfortunately I been really directly interact with them cause that was, yeah, I know, I know. I’m also a bit bummed about it because that’s, this data was collected before I actually started my PhD. Right. But yeah, I mean they are exceptional and so perhaps, I mean they might even have optimal like genetic backgrounds focused attitude toward training, performing and also access to trainers. And I think, yeah, exercise is important but also like the nutrition that, um, like the food that you eat, it’s also very important to get the benefits from the exercise that we do, especially in advanced age. Right? Because we know that older people, they don’t consume enough, um, proteins or nutrients. Right? So when we start with the exercise, which, and we also need to optimize that, you know, to get the, the optimal benefit. Right.

Dr. Cooper

And for you, you’re not 81, what did this steady do to you and your perspective and what you’re doing with your life and the plans you’re making? Did, did it have an influence?

Dr. Sonjak

Um, I was, it just somehow concerned for me what I’ve been doing since a very young age. So I’m quite active that I, I haven’t been competitively involved in, in swimming and even, um, after, um, like I ended my swim career, I still, you know, went to the gym. I did different classes, I did a bit of CrossFit, um, I bike. So it’s, I dunno, it’s just a way of life for me. It just to stay active and it’s not even like feeling stronger. It also helps me to focus. It makes me happy. So I think besides like the whole exercise, it’s, um, yes, it makes you fit, but there are also other, um, factors that exercise improves mood. And it pushes you also in a way to be more socialized, especially if you think of classes. Right.

Dr. Cooper

Good. So last question, and this is taking your research hat off and just saying, from your experience, your research, your interaction, what you’ve read in the literature, any final words of wisdom you’d like to share with anyone that’s trying to improve their health, their wellness, or their performance overall?

Dr. Sonjak

Yeah, so I would definitely say it’s never too late to start exercising and make any changes, but yeah, it is important for people to take their hand, their health into their own hands because no one else will will do that for them. Right.

Dr. Cooper

Perfect. Dr. Sonjak, I really appreciate it. Thank you for joining us today.

Dr. Sonjak

Well, thank you for having me. It was a, it was really nice

Dr. Cooper

[inaudible] in the

world of health, wellness and performance, it’s common to just scratch the surface and ignore the details. That’s why we were excited to have dr sanjak join us. Of course, we knew in quotes that activity and resistance training makes a difference, but do we know why now? We do. And it sounds like there’s some intriguing research that we’ll build on this right around the corner. Thank you for joining us. If you enjoy the podcast, share it with others. If you have two minutes to leave a positive review on iTunes, that goes so far to helping people find us. So really appreciate it. And if you enjoy this podcast, you might enjoy our new YouTube coaching channel, which you can literally find it. youtube.com/coaching channel. We just released a special video of one of the legends of health, wellness and performance to our subscribers there. So you might wanna check that out. Now it’s time to go get better and help those around us do the same. And as we heard today, sometimes that is literally one step, one repetition at a time. This is Dr. Bradford Cooper signing off. Make it a great rest of your week and I’ll speak with you soon on the next episode of the catalyst health wellness